The following is the transcript of the full interview with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, which aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on April 6, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by the Secretary General of NATO Mark Rutte in Brussels. Good morning to you, sir.
NATO SECRETARY GENERAL MARK RUTTE: Good morning. Good to be on the program.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you’ve been a busy man this week. And I know NATO is a defensive alliance, it’s not a trade alliance. And you and Secretary Rubio have repeatedly said this trade war is not impacting NATO. But respectfully, how could this tension between allies not have any impact? And are you concerned at all that European countries will move towards other, perhaps cheaper, markets like China?
RUTTE: I’m not saying it doesn’t have an impact on individual allies, but it does not have an impact on the alliance. There, Marco Rubio and I are on the same page, because the alliance is focused on making sure we can fight the Russian threat. We can make sure that we can bring Ukraine, as much as possible, collectively under U.S. leadership, to a durable and lasting peace, and that is our laser focus of the last couple of days.
MARGARET BRENNAN: George Marshall — in Europe, you know, the man who was responsible for the Marshall Plan and helping to rebuild after World War Two, linked economic health to political stability and peace. Don’t these tensions make your job a little bit harder?
RUTTE: To be honest, I don’t believe so. Yes, you’re right, there are tensions between allies because of this- this tariff question, but this is not concerning the alliance as a whole, because there will be potentially impact on the economies, but not to an extent that it will impact our collective defense. That’s my firm conviction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay. Because there is this request from the United States and a call you have made yourself to increase spending on defense. Right? So the next summit is now going to be held in June, and leaders there are expected to hike the military budget spending goal from 2% to 3%. The Trump administration wants it all the way up to spending about 5% on a country’s own defense. So you’re asking for that. At the same time the United States is repairing its relationship with Russia. How do you convince members to spend more to counter the threat from Russia, at a time when the U.S. is going closer to it, and the U.S. is putting economic pressure on Europe?
RUTTE: Well, first on the U.S. Russia question. What Trump has done since he came into office is break the deadlock when it comes to this terrible war in Ukraine, because we’ve got to stop the killing, we’ve got to stop the fighting, and I commend him for that. And- and I must say, allies here in the last couple of days meeting with Foreign Ministers are fully supporting the U.S. effort to bring this war to a fair and durable and lasting end. And we’ll see — we have to see how far we can get.
But I mean, the fact that day at night, the American administration is working on that is- is important. And then when it comes to defense spending the last couple of months here in the European side of NATO, it is staggering the amount of billions coming in. It- it- you have to compare this to the days of the Cold War, when you look at the overall defense spending now being ramped up in Europe- and we have to continue doing this, because, as I said in December, if we would stick to the old 2% we cannot defend ourselves here in three to five years. But with the billions — literally hundreds of billions coming in now from the Europeans, from — from — for example, Germany, half a trillion, and so many other European allies. It’s really impressive, and — and that will help us to one, have a stronger NATO, because we spend more and we produce more.
But secondly, also in NATO, which is fair because- and this is to President Trump’s point, it means that we have more equality in terms of what you’re spending on defense, and what we are spending here on the European side of NATO on defense. And we need that to become more lethal as an organization.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But at the same time that President Trump is calling for a peace deal in Ukraine, there is this parallel, separate effort to repair America’s relationship with Russia. Reopening diplomatic facilities is being discussed. Just this week Kirill Dmitriev, an ally of President Putin who’s under sanctions, was here in Washington meeting with Steve Witkoff, as you know. He said in television interviews, the U.S. and Russia could work together on counterterrorism, in the Arctic and develop rare earths in Russia together. So doesn’t the U.S. getting closer to Russia undercut your efforts to counter Russia?
RUTTE: Well, I’m not sure I completely would share your assessment on what the U.S. and Russia are doing at the moment. Of course, I’m not in the room when all these talks take place, but what I’m seeing from a distance and hearing from my American colleagues and- including the President, whom I visited a couple of weeks ago in a very successful meeting we had in the Oval Office and then during lunch. There is this effort to bring this war to an end. And as part of that effort, the U.S. is really trying to- to- and- and at this moment, as we speak, this is Friday. Maybe this has changed on Sunday when you air this, but on Friday, the ball clearly is in the court of the Russians. They are not moving fast enough, is my impression, including the impression I’m getting from my American interlocutors, that- that Russia really has to do more to bring this war to an end.
The Ukrainians are really close to the American position. And we have seen- we have to see how far the Americans can get this. But I am completely supporting that effort, because this war of protection- protection, it was unsustainable in the long term, so many people dying, so much of the Ukrainian infrastructure being damaged, cities being destroyed. This got to end.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, you just mentioned Secretary Rubio, who, on Friday, said the Trump administration wanted a complete ceasefire in Ukraine, but the Russians would only agree to a partial one. The U.S. took it because he said, quote, “it’s better than nothing.” Are you concerned that Russia is dictating terms?
RUTTE: No, I’m not, because I spoke with Marco Rubio, I’m in regular contact with the other members of the American administration. I think you guys are really trying, step-by-step, to get to a situation where this war can end. But of course, the Russia- Russians also have to dance the tango, and at this moment they don’t seem to do so, and then it will be difficult. But, the fact that you guys are trying, that the American administration is all the power you can project- project on the world stage. You are trying this because we know that- that the front line was moving in the wrong direction. We know that this war was moving in the wrong direction. This was- this was not going to end well, and already so many people were- were dying, so I really commend your American efforts.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is it your assessment, is it NATO’s assessment that Vladimir Putin is not considering ending his invasion of Ukraine?
RUTTE: Well, we don’t know. I think this is the test now, and we have to see —
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: — What happens if he’s not? Do you know what —
RUTTE: — what his reaction will be to the American proposals.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, what’s the consequence? Do you know?
(END CROSSTALK)
RUTTE: So it’s difficult for me to assess, but clearly we have to take this step by step. And until January this year, nothing happened when it came to bringing this war to an end. When Trump came in- President Trump came in after his inauguration, he started this process. And- and it- it might take longer than we would want to, but the fact that he tries is therefore also testing the Russians whether they are serious in this. We have to see over the coming weeks how far he can get it, and I’m supporting it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand that. General Cavoli, who you know well as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, the U.S. generals here in Washington testifying this week. He said Russia intends to diminish U.S. leadership and influence. It is actively conducting a destabilization campaign within Europe right now to create strategic dilemmas for the U.S. What is happening to NATO members here, and is Russia succeeding in this destabilization campaign?
RUTTE: Chris Cavoli is the supreme allied commander. He is- he is absolutely right. What we are seeing in Europe, but also in the U.S., but let me speak for the European side of NATO, is that the Russians through cyberattacks, assassination attempts, jamming commercial airplanes in the Baltic area, cyberattacks on the national health service in the United Kingdom, cutting critical undersea infrastructure between Baltic countries and Finland and in other parts of the Baltic, in the Baltic Sea. They are conducting this campaign. The good news is that as NATO, as collective, we are much, much better, not only at assessing what is happening, but also making sure that we prevent the next steps in this campaign from happening. And the Russians hate us for that, and we have to do this so Cavoli is completely right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that destabilization campaign has not halted or paused as these attempts to broker peace have been underway?
RUTTE: Well, I mean, this whole destabilization campaign is going on for years now and I have no day-to-day assessment, whether it is on a scale from 1 to 10 at number 9, or number 3. But the reports we are getting is that the Russians still very active. We are still worried about, for example, the critical undersea infrastructure. But thanks to Chris Cavoli and in his role as Supreme Allied Commander, we have, in less than 10 days, brought together a big endeavor by European NATO allies in the- in the Baltic Sea to really make it very difficult for the Russians to continue doing this. And again, they- they hate us for this, and I love that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are roughly about 90,000 or more U.S. troops stationed in Europe right now. Secretary Hegseth said Europe should not assume that presence is going to last forever. I know you say that the U.S. is committed to NATO, but do you have any sense of how fast or significant this kind of drawdown that’s being mentioned by Hegseth could be, and is there a NATO backup plan?
RUTTE: There are no concrete plans for the drawdown. What we know, and Pete Hegseth was very clear on this, is that this U.S. administration- but by the way, this is U.S. policy since 2010 to pivot more towards Asia, towards the Indo-Pacific. And the agreement we have is that we will do whatever is necessary in a no surprises way. So if it is necessary to draw down or to pivot more towards Asia, to do it in a way that we can really compensate for that, take time, do it step by step, because that is important, because then this concerns the overall defense and the terms of NATO territory.
And at the same time, I completely acknowledge the fact that U.S. has, the United States, has more theaters to attend to, not only the Euro-Atlantic, but also the Indo-Pacific. And by the way, also, thanks to President Trump and his position on this, as NATO, we will be more and more active in the Indo-Pacific with our partners. I will visit Japan next week to have my meetings there with the senior leadership to see how we can intensify that strong relationship we already have with the Indo-Pacific.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about nuclear deterrence. The US and UK are declared nuclear powers, and they give, by extension, NATO some protection. The leaders of Germany, of Poland and France have recently said things about expanding a nuclear umbrella because they are concerned that America isn’t going to be as committed to their defense. Have you had any conversations about an alternative to the US nuclear umbrella, or bringing France’s arsenal into it?
RUTTE: No, I didn’t. And — and Marco Rubio this week basically repeated what President Trump has said three times now on television: that- that the US is completely committed to NATO, is completely committed to Article Five. That includes the US being the ultimate guarantor, through the nuclear deterrent, for NATO territory, including, and particularly of course, the European part of NATO —
MARGARET BRENNAN: –So the French are wrong when they raise that?
RUTTE: –And what I’m urging my European colleagues to do is to put on the television and sometimes listen to the senior American leadership when it comes to NATO, instead of worrying constantly about, ‘Is- is the US still committed to NATO?’ The answer is yes, it has been consistently coming out of the American system over the last three months. Including the expectation that on the European side of NATO and the Canadian side, we will continue ramping up defense spending, because that is only fair, and we are doing it. And that’s the good news.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. That’s not my assessment. That was the leaders of France, Poland, and Germany, sir, as you know. You’ve raised concern that China is building towards 1,000 nuclear warheads by 2030. Is that a direct threat to NATO?
RUTTE: It is. It is a direct threat to the stability in the whole world, including NATO territory, absolutely. They have now more navy ships sailing than the United States. We have a problem, the United States part of NATO, the Canadian part of NATO, European part of NATO, that we are not producing enough defense industrial products. We are producing in a full year in ammunition what Russia is producing in three months. Russia has only 5% of NATO economy, compared. So we are 20 times bigger, the overall NATO economy, than Russia, and Russia is producing four times more in ammunition than the whole of NATO is producing in a year. That’s- that’s totally crazy, and that’s why the President and I discussed, and the other senior leaders in the U.S. and I discussed, also with European allies, that we have not only to ramp up spending, but also the defense industrial production. That includes cutting the red tape, both in the U.S. and here in Europe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Just to quickly clarify, China’s nuclear arsenal is a direct threat to NATO?
RUTTE: Well, it- it’s there not to be used against China. So it is there as a deterrence or whatever the goal is. But I would say more generally, let’s not be naive about China. The build up of their armed forces is taking place at a pace which is incredible. And when we talk about Ukraine, and bringing Ukraine to a durable end and a peace, a durable peace in the end, let’s not forget that Russia is working with North Korea and China and Iran. And that in the end, there is an audience of one watching what comes out of this. And that is the first Secretary of the Communist Party of China, Xi Jinping. And he will assess, when there is a deal on Ukraine, who comes out on top: is it the West, or is it Russia? And if it is Russia, he would get his thoughts going about his territorial claims in the Indo-Pacific. And we know he has them. Take Taiwan, etc. So there are big risks involved, and that’s why we have to bring Ukraine to a peace which is lasting, and that Putin will never try this again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary General, thank you for your time.
RUTTE: Thank you.
